BTC, the situation really is quite simple. You are a consultant. You aren't running a charitable organization.

You can still provide value even though you aren't interested in providing (nor do you have the current background necessary to) provide implementation services for the HR module of SAP.

If you don't mind doing some tech work, sell yourself on the architecture side. SAP implementations are always complex and expensive. If you feel technically comfortable with the role, there is value in giving higher level guidance for their project.

I'm a consultant doing data architecture work in your neck of the woods. (Huntington Beach) If you would like to talk more offline, send me an email and I'll be more than happy to give you a little bit of my time.

I surfed on over here from a graph posted on patrick.net.

Forgive me for laughing after reading this, but it's so typical! I've worked for myself for over ten years and the adage "no good deed will go unpunished" often applies. In this specific situation I would respond with thanking them for the promised clarifying email to come, and that you will be, at some point when your schedule allows, emailing an estimate of your time involved, if even simply taking the time to research an appropriate referral for them. Another technique I use is referring people like this to competitors I dislike. : ) Send the PITA their way, I say!

Some people's kids...

I can't tell you how many of those "brainstorming sessions" I've been invited to and declined. This is, of course, a thinly-veiled reference to developing an entire framework for someone with no fee attached.

I think it's a combination of a total absence of manners and that these fucks feel somehow entitled to other people's knowledge and experience. Because you'll notice that these are the same people who don't even follow up with a token thank-you gift. I mean, even if you're a cash-strapped start-up, you can take the time to pick up a $10 bottle of wine at Trader Joe's to thank someone for the hundreds or thousands of dollars of in-kind work they've just done for you.

Let this be a lesson to all of those out there with no home training...no one else owes you anything, and favors should be regarded with a good bit of "I'm so appreciative that you would go out of your way to help me!"

WCS:

'No good deed goes unpunished".

How laughably true is that.

Though, at the end of the day, I'm quite willing to offer good advice if the mood strikes me. And if the person receiving seems to be 'receiving'.

Cheers, Mail Guru

An update

Yesterday, I got an email from the CEO, informing me that he was now out of the country and asking me to talk with his IT manager.

I begrudgingly agreed to do so. It's obviously possible that something may come of this.

But he still misses the point. He sent a personal email, to members of a pretty tight community that he claims to be a member of. You just don't do that, then blow the person off to somebody else.

I'd feel differently if he had sent out a solicitation for consulting services. In that case I would have responded differently and had different expecations. It's quite normal for those kinds of things to be passed along. But if you're going to be pulling out the "common background/interest" card, you'd better be willing to respond in kind.

Winex, will drop you an email. Always happy to talk. I'm with a client the rest of the day, then out of town tomorrow, so maybe we can chat next week. I tend to work from the business side, not in a technical role anymore, so the fact that I was blown off to the IT guy suggests that this isn't going to be a project where I can be helpful, although you never know. I've seen IT-managed projects that failed because there was no business side engagement. Part of the reason for my response was that the request came from the CEO, not from anybody in IT, and that's more representative of where I can add value.

-btc

Aspeth,

I decline these things all the time.

As noted, I responded because:

1) He and I went to the same biz school, though at different times. I generally expect, and generally am rewarded with, a reasonable level of professionalism when I respond to requests forwarded through this medium. It's also been my best source of contacts and referrals over the years.

2) The email was from the CEO, not some IT flunkie. That also often leads to a professional discussion, ususally starting from the vague and strategic stuff (ie, "we know we need to do this but how the fuck to we even get started") and driving down to the more specific ("Here's a list of five things you usually need to start with, and BTW one of them is to bring in somebody who knows what he's doing") and eventually moving on to the soft sales pitch ("And I happen to be available this month.")

3) It seemed urgent. Always easier to sell yourself to somebody who's desperate for help right now, than to somebody who has all the time in the world to "have discussions."

Seems I was wrong on several accounts. At least it only cost me the time to write a few emails.

Incidentally, if you really want to impress somebody you don't even need a gift. A handwritten thank-you note has become such a rare treat that it really gets people's attention. Custom notecards and a nice fountain pen were two of my first purchases for the business.

-btc

BTC...absolutely agree on the handwritten thank you note. Great point.

I can't think of a graceful way to say this so I will just ask: could there be a culture mismatch? Is the CEO relatively recent to the USA and missing some of our sociocultural niceties?

He's definitely of foreign origin.

But he's also made it through a top-10 biz school and has work experience in this country prior to this company.

-btc

BTC, I'd be more than happy to talk with you, but all of next week is going to be bad. I'm going to be in Washington D.C. for the week and will be consumed with the business that I have calling me there.

Maybe I can drop you a line the weekend after this one.

Winex,

No big rush. I'll get with you after next week.

Another Update

Heard from the IT geek today. During the conversation he:

• Explained that they were already working with a consulting firm on strategy, functional issues, etc. IOW, the stuff that I would have expected to talk with the CEO about, and where I might have been useful.
• Explained that they were nonetheless looking for input about issues that they had not engaged the consultants to deal with, and were dealing with in-house. These were mostly related to hardware, ASP vs. in-house hardware, and other infrastructural matters.
• In response to my question "Why not ask your consultants," explained that they had chosen not to pay for consulting on these matters.
• That he hoped that I would be able to provide useful input about those matters that they didn't want to pay for advice about.

I quickly made excuses. This really crossed the line. I mean, come on:

• You have a fucking consulting firm already!
• You have decided to go for the cheap consulting deal, paying only for the stuff that you know you can't possibly do yourselves, and hoping to muddle through the other stuff without professional help.
• You plan to backfill for your own cheapness and incompetence by asking me and other people for free consulting!

I made excuses and told some partial truths to get myself out of answering, or even providing a useful framework. (Definitely no recent relevant experience with SAP, though I've looked at the same questions with regard to an Oracle shop recently a couple of years ago.)

Done talking. Not even a chance for something good for me in it and the fact that I'm talking to the IT flunkie means that there's not even so much as a useful reference. Time to forget about it and move on.

-btc

Ah yeah BTC - another one that hooks you in is the LinkedIn crowd - after I wasted 10 hours writing up stuff for a close contact through there he got busy "fighting fires" - so busy he never responded to the extensive work I put together for him with even a thankyou. I guess I learnt that lesson the hard way.

I've learned to actively avoid such techno-linked groups, because the type of request you got and its manner is exactly the same that I would get constantly.

BTC,

As an aside, I've read many non-CaseySerin posts of yours here, and I absolutely love this blog and your writing style. When my TypeKey account gets finalized, please oh please do for me what you did for Aspeth and others. I promise I'm fully of witty econo-speak.

Woohoo! I can comment now

In my experience people tend to be more courteous to people who they can attach faces to.

This is one of the reasons why I insist on getting some face time before proceeding with any consultation or project.

I automatically put people in ignore mode if they don't even want to afford the time to meet in person.

Brian,

I agree. It's why my first offer to Small Company CEO was to meet in person.

R-boy and others, you shouldn't need to have a typekey ID, but if you do I can make you "trusted posters" which gets you past most of the spam checks. An email is always required.

I was advised last night that my spam filtering was too tight, so I loosened it a bit. Should help everybody.

-btc

Human Resourse outsourcing firm, and nobody mentions that? Jobs going to India, perhaps? So normal, that it doesn't rate a comment anymore?

Los Cause,

My impression is that they are not so much into sending things to India as they are in the business of providing HR management to smaller firms, that need some kind of professional HR management, but aren't quite big enough to justify having a full-time person in house.

They provide the HR manager, the systems, access to benefits (which allows them to pool all their client firms together, for better rates and options), etc.

Seem to be focused on making as much of it as possible "self-service." I'm not sure that's a bad idea, as it tends to narrow the HR role to an administrative one and leaves the real important issues (hiring, recruiting, etc.) in the hands of actual business managers. There's nothing worse than a small company with an underworked HR mangager who makes it her business to be involved in everything.

-btc

The Hubby's employer has virtually all the HR outsourced to one of those companies. If done right, it can be a very good deal for both SMBs and their employees (dare I say, a win-win?).

If I were doing a startup, I'd take a very hard look at using one myself.